I've often wondered why people don't talk about heaven more. And I think it's because you must die before you can go there and no one likes to talk about death. Here is a poem that is in the book that may help us all to view death differently.
I once scorned every fearful thought of death, When it was but the end of pulse and breath, But now my eyes have seen that past the pain There is a world that's waiting to be claimed. Earthmaker, Holy, let me now depart, For living's such a tempory art, And dying is but getting dressed for God, Our graves are merely doorways cut in sod. Calvin Miller
K, I just finished Chap. 2...you should have warned me this is a thick book!:) So far a lot to wrap this little head around. But it got me thinking about something I have never thought of...you know we've been taught we all go to heaven or hell when we die, but the new heaven and earth are not until after the final judgment etc. right? so where are dead people now? cuz their bodies are still buried... I just always thought ya we go to heaven or hell when we die depending on life's choices we made. But then there's the whole "dead in Christ will rise first..." which just kind of creeps me out too....anyway, so I have shared my ignorance with you all :) I'll keep reading and I am sure I will find some answers. :)
OK, I'm settled down after our "discussion" last night. Pat and I discussed it some more this morning and we still don't agree but hopefully she will come around. :)
Now to find your answer, skip to page 57. He states that this is "certainly debatable" and goes on to explain the possibilities.
And I don't think you or my wife are ignorant about this. You are learning, I am learning... about what I believe is one of the more important and exciting portions of our faith. The teachings that the author says has been neglected in our current age.
So, Heaven. Laurie and I talk about having the same definition of terms. This is so important when talking about Heaven. Present Heaven or Eternal Heaven (or New Earth). This is a distinction that must be made in our conversations, yet it (up til now) never has been. So, now that we have the same definition of terms, we can continue without confusing one another.
So here are some of my random thoughts: 1. I'm glad he mentions Hell and it's reality and focuses a little on it. Page 24 says it best. "The reality of Hell should break our hearts and take us to our knees and to the doors of those without Christ." 2. Jackie Chan says in the new Karate Kid, "Kung Fu is everything, and everthing is Kung Fu." I beg to differ. But replace Kung Fu with Balance, and I agree. On pg 16 he says that Satan sabaotages us by getting us to see Heaven as undesirable or unimaginable. Somewhere I wouldn't want to go, or somewhere that's too good to be true. I'm sure the word balance will come up more as we continue this. 3. I know this is a book by Randy Alcorn, but I'm convinced C.S. Lewis was a genius. His writings never cease to amaze me. Take his story of the Silver Chair. This point about Heaven and Earth, that the things of Earth are an extension of Heaven, not the other way around, was so wonderfully depicted in that story. (Alcorn makes the same point again on pg 54 in case we didn't catch it the first time.) Lewis is quoted many times, and I love it. 4. I like the idea that Eden is in the New Jerusalem in the Present Heaven right now. That helps my brain imagine better. It also answers where is Eden, thinking it is still here. Which leads to that whole part about string theory he mentioned and how scientists believe there could be ten dimensions that we can't see out there. So Eden was just part of a different dimension that, before sin, God allowed Adam and Eve to see. Maybe.?? 5. Pg 52 talks of how when drawing inferences about Heaven, why would we draw them from the nature of God? Heaven is created, God is not. So it would make more sense to draw our inferences from the nature of man. Good thought. 6. We are commanded to set our hearts and minds on Heaven. pg 20-21, or Col 3:1,2. So good thing we're reading this. And we probably should never stop talking about it. 7. The beginning chapter talks of the neglect of past great men, books, and sermons to mention the reality of Heaven. I think I knew this, but it was crazy to see the facts of how it is such a neglected truth. Oh how the enemy has won so many victories in this area. It's so true what he says on pg. 11, that our incorrect thinking of Heaven causes us to set our minds on this life, this world, and therefore, not be motivated to share our faith. May it not be so for us.
Well, that's all for now. Please don't expect this long of comments from me all the time. It just worked out this way. Neither do I expect your comments to be this long.
I'm very glad we're doing this and look forward to the month and months ahead.
God bless you all.
By the way, you can't mention a "discussion" that happened without letting the rest of us know what the discussion was about.
I'm having trouble finding my way between a post and comments. I just fumble around until it happens so forgive me if I'm not in the right area.
I signed my wife up (hopefully correctly) in the hopes that she would enter the discussion and explain our, LA/DK/PK's "discussion" the other night as I'm sure I would misrepresent what those two were were trying to present.
My take on the "discussion" was the importance of heaven. For many years I felt that heaven was better than hell and it was why I accepted Christ, to escape the fires of hell. But after reading this book a number of years ago, it helped me realize more fully, the love of God. It helped me move from fear of God to love of God. Now I still struggle with understanding the balance and the need for both fear and love but at least it's not one sided. Still I have attempted to share this with others and have not been successful. I purchased this book for our former pastor, my former boss, and my current pastor and none of them have appeared to read them or acknowledge the importance. This is why I'm excited that Trevor picked this book. Now I realize that in my excitement I tend to be a little bullheaded and I apoligize if I come across as being a know-it-all. But this has been a huge part of change in my life. It has helped me change (again hopefully) my daughters view of life stuck in a wheelchair and what she has to look forward to. Hope for the future. It has helped me not fear death but look forward in anticipation to the end. Especially now that it's 2/3 over! :) And it might even be partially responsibe for my rants on Angels! I guess in all my enthusiasm, I tend to not communicate clearly. I still remember a staff devo I gave years ago on heaven that I tried to encourage people with and all I got was rather blank looks. Acey tried to help by saying he'd never heard it presented this way but I think I failed miserably. But Randy Alcorn doesn't! He does a great job of balancing what scripture says (not a whole lot) and what other experts such as CS Lewis have said in the past, and his own thoughts. Is it inspired "God breathed"? No. But I do think it's as inspired as any other book that you will find at the Family Christian Bookstore....maybe even more.
So I'll quit ranting and try to stick to discussing the book. I just thought this might help others to understand where I'm coming from.
I've often wondered why people don't talk about heaven more. And I think it's because you must die before you can go there and no one likes to talk about death. Here is a poem that is in the book that may help us all to view death differently.
ReplyDeleteI once scorned every fearful thought of death,
When it was but the end of pulse and breath,
But now my eyes have seen that past the pain
There is a world that's waiting to be claimed.
Earthmaker, Holy, let me now depart,
For living's such a tempory art,
And dying is but getting dressed for God,
Our graves are merely doorways cut in sod.
Calvin Miller
So looking forward to it! Thanks T!
ReplyDeleteBe sure to read the introduction as it's powerful. Is everyone started?
ReplyDeleteK, I just finished Chap. 2...you should have warned me this is a thick book!:) So far a lot to wrap this little head around. But it got me thinking about something I have never thought of...you know we've been taught we all go to heaven or hell when we die, but the new heaven and earth are not until after the final judgment etc. right? so where are dead people now? cuz their bodies are still buried...
ReplyDeleteI just always thought ya we go to heaven or hell when we die depending on life's choices we made. But then there's the whole "dead in Christ will rise first..." which just kind of creeps me out too....anyway, so I have shared my ignorance with you all :) I'll keep reading and I am sure I will find some answers. :)
OK, I'm settled down after our "discussion" last night. Pat and I discussed it some more this morning and we still don't agree but hopefully she will come around. :)
ReplyDeleteNow to find your answer, skip to page 57. He states that this is "certainly debatable" and goes on to explain the possibilities.
And I don't think you or my wife are ignorant about this. You are learning, I am learning... about what I believe is one of the more important and exciting portions of our faith. The teachings that the author says has been neglected in our current age.
So, Heaven. Laurie and I talk about having the same definition of terms. This is so important when talking about Heaven. Present Heaven or Eternal Heaven (or New Earth). This is a distinction that must be made in our conversations, yet it (up til now) never has been. So, now that we have the same definition of terms, we can continue without confusing one another.
ReplyDeleteSo here are some of my random thoughts:
1. I'm glad he mentions Hell and it's reality and focuses a little on it. Page 24 says it best. "The reality of Hell should break our hearts and take us to our knees and to the doors of those without Christ."
2. Jackie Chan says in the new Karate Kid, "Kung Fu is everything, and everthing is Kung Fu." I beg to differ. But replace Kung Fu with Balance, and I agree. On pg 16 he says that Satan sabaotages us by getting us to see Heaven as undesirable or unimaginable. Somewhere I wouldn't want to go, or somewhere that's too good to be true. I'm sure the word balance will come up more as we continue this.
3. I know this is a book by Randy Alcorn, but I'm convinced C.S. Lewis was a genius. His writings never cease to amaze me. Take his story of the Silver Chair. This point about Heaven and Earth, that the things of Earth are an extension of Heaven, not the other way around, was so wonderfully depicted in that story. (Alcorn makes the same point again on pg 54 in case we didn't catch it the first time.) Lewis is quoted many times, and I love it.
4. I like the idea that Eden is in the New Jerusalem in the Present Heaven right now. That helps my brain imagine better. It also answers where is Eden, thinking it is still here. Which leads to that whole part about string theory he mentioned and how scientists believe there could be ten dimensions that we can't see out there. So Eden was just part of a different dimension that, before sin, God allowed Adam and Eve to see. Maybe.??
5. Pg 52 talks of how when drawing inferences about Heaven, why would we draw them from the nature of God? Heaven is created, God is not. So it would make more sense to draw our inferences from the nature of man. Good thought.
6. We are commanded to set our hearts and minds on Heaven. pg 20-21, or Col 3:1,2. So good thing we're reading this. And we probably should never stop talking about it.
7. The beginning chapter talks of the neglect of past great men, books, and sermons to mention the reality of Heaven. I think I knew this, but it was crazy to see the facts of how it is such a neglected truth. Oh how the enemy has won so many victories in this area. It's so true what he says on pg. 11, that our incorrect thinking of Heaven causes us to set our minds on this life, this world, and therefore, not be motivated to share our faith. May it not be so for us.
Well, that's all for now. Please don't expect this long of comments from me all the time. It just worked out this way. Neither do I expect your comments to be this long.
I'm very glad we're doing this and look forward to the month and months ahead.
God bless you all.
By the way, you can't mention a "discussion" that happened without letting the rest of us know what the discussion was about.
I'm having trouble finding my way between a post and comments. I just fumble around until it happens so forgive me if I'm not in the right area.
ReplyDeleteI signed my wife up (hopefully correctly) in the hopes that she would enter the discussion and explain our, LA/DK/PK's "discussion" the other night as I'm sure I would misrepresent what those two were were trying to present.
My take on the "discussion" was the importance of heaven. For many years I felt that heaven was better than hell and it was why I accepted Christ, to escape the fires of hell. But after reading this book a number of years ago, it helped me realize more fully, the love of God. It helped me move from fear of God to love of God. Now I still struggle with understanding the balance and the need for both fear and love but at least it's not one sided. Still I have attempted to share this with others and have not been successful. I purchased this book for our former pastor, my former boss, and my current pastor and none of them have appeared to read them or acknowledge the importance. This is why I'm excited that Trevor picked this book. Now I realize that in my excitement I tend to be a little bullheaded and I apoligize if I come across as being a know-it-all. But this has been a huge part of change in my life. It has helped me change (again hopefully) my daughters view of life stuck in a wheelchair and what she has to look forward to. Hope for the future. It has helped me not fear death but look forward in anticipation to the end. Especially now that it's 2/3 over! :) And it might even be partially responsibe for my rants on Angels! I guess in all my enthusiasm, I tend to not communicate clearly. I still remember a staff devo I gave years ago on heaven that I tried to encourage people with and all I got was rather blank looks. Acey tried to help by saying he'd never heard it presented this way but I think I failed miserably. But Randy Alcorn doesn't! He does a great job of balancing what scripture says (not a whole lot) and what other experts such as CS Lewis have said in the past, and his own thoughts. Is it inspired "God breathed"? No. But I do think it's as inspired as any other book that you will find at the Family Christian Bookstore....maybe even more.
So I'll quit ranting and try to stick to discussing the book. I just thought this might help others to understand where I'm coming from.